[ghmerrill]

I've only been using MobileSheets for a few days, but things are going well.  I've created a library of pieces and am using this to practice playing, using my Chromebook (an Acer 513).  And I've also been looking through, and experimenting with various settings.

I can't find where MobileSheets has stashed my files.  Scouring previous postings hasn't resulted in enlightenment, although it did result in installing the Files by Google app -- which unfortunately can't seem to see where the files in my MobileSheets library are stashed.

Originally I started by letting MobileSheets manage my files.  But, using the standard Chromebook Files browser I couldn't see them anywhere.  At that point I tried to change over to "Set the MobileSheets Storage Location", the interface didn't present me with the ability to choose a directory, but allowed me to select /storage/emulated .../com.zubersoft.mobileshetspro/files and click "OK".

Using the Google Files app to look at Internal storage/Android/data shows that there's nothing there.

I'm pretty sure that I made some missteps in all this fumbling about, but I'm thinking that I should be able to see the files SOMEWHERE (?)  -- unless (somehow?) MobileSheets is (for some reason, despite appearances) using the files that are in the original directory from which they were imported?

Any enlightenment on this will be appreciated.  Otherwise, everything seems to be working splendidly.

[Zubersoft]

With Android 11 or higher, applications are not allowed to have access to the directories used by other applications. So that means a file browser will not be able to see into /storage/emulated/0/Android/data/com.zubersoft.mobilesheetspro/files on higher Android versions. However, with most Android devices, if you connect a USB cable, the Windows device can access that directory through File Explorer.

You said you can't change the folder when selecting "Set the MobileSheets Storage Location". I'm a little confused by that. There should be two icons - an SD card icon and a folder icon. If you tap the folder icon, it should let you pick a different folder on your device (so long as you have granted the "All files access" permission). That could be a new folder under /storage/emulated/0, and then an external file browser would have access to that location. Can you verify that you have granted the all files access permission for MobileSheets? This is normally under the main tablet settings->Apps, tap the three dots at the top right, "Special Access" and then "All files access". That's at least where it is on Samsung devices - I don't have a Chromebook device handy at the moment to check to see if it's the same on ChromeOS.

On a side note, if you tap Import->Local File, then tap the SD card icon at the top, then select "App data directory", that will take you to /storage/emulated/0/Android/data/com.zubersoft.mobilesheetspro/files, and then you should be able to see all your files.

Mike

[ghmerrill]

With Android 11 or higher, applications are not allowed to have access to the directories used by other applications. So that means a file browser will not be able to see into /storage/emulated/0/Android/data/com.zubersoft.mobilesheetspro/files on higher Android versions. However, with most Android devices, if you connect a USB cable, the Windows device can access that directory through File Explorer.

Thanks -- though one of the reasons I've got a Chromebook is to get away from "the Windows device".    And I really have been enjoying that SO much.  So ... just to be clear ... what you're saying is that I can't access one of my own files on my own device with a "foreign" application on the same system, but if I plug a foreign (and adversarial) Windows system to it, then I can see those files.  That's making my head hurt, but I don't doubt it. You can't make this stuff up. 

You said you can't change the folder when selecting "Set the MobileSheets Storage Location". I'm a little confused by that. There should be two icons - an SD card icon and a folder icon. If you tap the folder icon, it should let you pick a different folder on your device (so long as you have granted the "All files access" permission).

That could be a new folder under /storage/emulated/0, and then an external file browser would have access to that location. Can you verify that you have granted the all files access permission for MobileSheets? This is normally under the main tablet settings->Apps, tap the three dots at the top right, "Special Access" and then "All files access". That's at least where it is on Samsung devices - I don't have a Chromebook device handy at the moment to check to see if it's the same on ChromeOS

Yeah, there's something funky here.  I thought I did this, and "Let MobileSheets Manage My files " is showing as checked.

And so pursuant to that ...

Looking under my apps permissions on the Chromebook, I see that permissions listed are "Camera" and "Storage".  Camera is "Allowed - While in use" and Storage is "denied".
If I go to "Manage App Permissions" I get a dialog that says "Camera" and "Nearby devices" are Allowed and that under "Not allowed" it says "No permissions denied." I don't see anywhere that Storage permissions are mentioned.

I just made a couple of circles around managing permissions on the Chromebook and on/via Google Play Store, and can't see anything else to do.  So I went back to MobileSheets and tried again ...

This time, when I try "Set the MobileSheets Storage Location" I get the same display, but when I select the file folder icon I see a bright orange icon resembling an SD card appear (a bit of cognitive dissonance there since I don't have an SD card plugged in at the moment). I click it and am rewarded by a little menu giving me three choices:  Device, App, and My files. Not deterred by mystery and ignorance, I click on Device and get a list of what looks like folders on a phone.  Okay, how about "App Data Directory"?  Well that's where the stuff already is, I guess.  Finally, "My files." Aha! a "Grant Storage Access" dialog appears.  Looks like progress.

Alas, its instruction is "Please select the root directory of the removable storage to grant access to MobileSheets." (Removable storage?  I don't have any removable storage accessible at the moment.) The choices presented are mysterious (and the font is vanishingly small -- even on my 27" monitor).  These choices are labeled as "Steps", but I don't know what that means.  And nothing on the diagram is clickable anyway.  Feeling a bit like Alice in Wonderland, I see the "Cancel  OK" choices and click "OK".  Down the rabbit hole we go with Alice ...

Miraculously a new page titled "My flles" appears -- but with the severe warning "Can't use this folder" (What folder?  Never mind) and a choice of "Create new folder".  Below this are three other buttons/selections of .Trash, Camera, Downloads, and Mydocuments.  Faced with what appear to be five choices, I go for CREATE NEW FOLDER.

It wants a "Folder name".  A "name"?  Or a path?  I don't know.  I decide to just throw it a name, and pitch it "MobileSheetsStorage", and click OK.  I'm rewarded with a page that, without explanation, displays "My files > MobileSheetsStorage" and "Files in MobileSheetsStorage" and then "No items".  Kind of makes sense, but where has it actually put this folder?

It turns out that this folder is really in my local "My files" folder.  SUCCESS!!!!  I think.

On a side note, if you tap Import->Local File, then tap the SD card icon at the top, then select "App data directory", that will take you to /storage/emulated/0/Android/data/com.zubersoft.mobilesheetspro/files, and then you should be able to see all your files.

Mike

Yes, that does work -- or rather, it's sufficient just to do the Import->Local File taps and I get a display of all my files on a page with what appears to be an oddly stylized representation of the full path to the folder they're in. Clicking the SD card at that point results in the same display.

So ... at this point this has all worked, EXCEPT there's nothing in that new MobileSheetsStorage directory I created.  So what do I do now in order to "move" my files into it?  Can I just do a file copy of some sort?  Or should I perform some sort of export/import action?

And (1) Will doing that have any effect on how the UI views what's in my collection? and (2) Will metadata I've added to the collection for each of the members remain?

Thanks. 

[Zubersoft]

As far as the USB connection, Google either doesn't consider that a security risk or it can't lock down the USB connection in the same way that they can access for individual applications on the device.

If you can select Import->Local File and import files off the device such as the Downloads folder (which is typically located under /storage/emulated/0/Downloads on a regular Android device), then the all files access permission is granted properly (which also grants the storage permission). If you find that you can't access that location, then that permission is not granted. I loaded up my Google Pixel Slate and for me, I have to do the following to get to that setting:

Settings->Apps->Manage Google Play preferences->Android Settings->Apps->Special App Access->All files access->MobileSheets

and then I can toggle it on. Please check that for me on your device.

As far as the "My Files", I would strongly advise against trying to make that the storage location. MobileSheets cannot get writable access to anything under that folder. I believe you should get an error if you try to do that, as MobileSheets will be unable to write to the folder you selected. 

As far as the "stylized representation", that is a breadcrumb bar so that you can tap on parts of the path to go back to that point without having to type things in with a keyboard (which most tablets don't have attached).

To export your entire library, go to the songs tab, long press a song to select it, tap the select all icon in the floating toolbar at the bottom right, tap Share->Export Files, uncheck every option and select a destination. Then every file will just be copied as-is to the location you selected. That should get you what you need if you just want a copy of all of those files. Your library is not modified by this in any way. Please be aware that metadata, annotations, link points, smart buttons, etc, are all stored in the database, and not in the files, so if you export them, none of that will be present in the files. You can optionally embed annotations if you want, and the metadata can be written into the PDFs, but I'm not sure exactly what your goal is with this. You can also create a library backup under Settings->Backup and Restore->Backup Library which contains everything in your entire library and all application settings if you are just wanting a backup. The companion app can also extract files from the backup.

Mike

[ghmerrill]

If you can select Import->Local File and import files off the device such as the Downloads folder (which is typically located under /storage/emulated/0/Downloads on a regular Android device), then the all files access permission is granted properly (which also grants the storage permission). If you find that you can't access that location, then that permission is not granted.

There seems to be something of an anomaly here. When I select Import->Local File I'm shown a list of what are apparently the local files in my (current) song list.  The path at the top of that display indicates that they are in "root . storage . emulated ... files".  Fair enough.

There is a bright orange SD card icon in the page banner area.  When I click on that I get the "Grant Storage Access" image displaying 4 "Steps".  I don't really know what to make of that, but I have two choices: Cancel or OK.  Clicking OK displays a page titled "My files" with a "Can't use this folder" warning area.  I'm not sure what "this folder" refers to, but I'm assuming it refers to the "My files" folder, and it offers me the opportunity to "CREATE NEW FOLDER".  This is how I created my MobileSheetsStorage folder within the "My Files" folder.

Below that "Can't use this folder" box is a list of folders:  .Trash, Camera, Downloads, MobileSheetsStorage, and MyDocuments.  I have no idea why these are displayed.  However I can double-click on them and see their contents -- except for the case of MyDocuments, which brings up a"Select Files" page listing some copies of my current song collection (but not actually the ones in it at the moment).  I don't know what to make of that.  This is NOT what is displayed when I look at My Documents from the Chromebook Files browser, and it appears to have thrown me back into navigation within MobileSheets at the primary Recent/Pieces/Setlists/Collections/Compositions/Years page. The interface seems to be behaving somewhat oddly there.

In any event, given the criteria your propose, it appears that indeed the appropriate permission has been granted.

My speculation at this point is that MobileSheets is making certain assumptions about the Chromebook/Trogdor file system's similarity to the standard Android phone file system, and that some of these assumptions aren't valid.  But that's just a guess.  But I don't think I want to push the envelope any further in this direction.

I loaded up my Google Pixel Slate and for me, I have to do the following to get to that setting:
Settings->Apps->Manage Google Play preferences->Android Settings->Apps->Special App Access->All files access->MobileSheets
and then I can toggle it on. Please check that for me on your device.

Doing that check, "All files access"for Mobile sheet is shown as "Allowed".

As far as the "My Files", I would strongly advise against trying to make that the storage location. MobileSheets cannot get writable access to anything under that folder. I believe you should get an error if you try to do that, as MobileSheets will be unable to write to the folder you selected. 

I was allowed to create the directory, and there were no errors displayed either at creation time or subsequently -- at least not that I noticed. It simply remains empty. I don't know at what point and in what form the error would appear.  There was no error dialog displayed or anything announced as an "error".

The interface at that point is a bit arcane, and I recall at certain points something about certain "locations" not being usable but it wasn't clear what the reference was at that point.  I assumed that if something wasn't usable, then it wouldn't be created.  So maybe what happened is that I managed to create a location unusable by MobileSheets even though that location has all the necessary permissions.

It's natural for a user to suppose that his local storage would be a good candidate for such storage rather than other more esoteric (but also local) locations that are not visible to him in any immediate way.  And the Settings UI makes no mention of avoiding My Files (unless that was what was intended in the vague statement about a location not being usable.

I guess when I select the Import > Local Files > My files > Grant Storage Access path and see the "Can't use the folder" warning, I should just quit and realize that I can't succeed.

In any event, I'm going to abandon my experimentation with this since it's not a major issue to me, and I'll just let MobileSheets put stuff where it wants.

... I'm not sure exactly what your goal is with this. You can also create a library backup under Settings->Backup and Restore->Backup Library which contains everything in your entire library and all application settings if you are just wanting a backup.

My goal was to create a restorable backup of a collection (not just the files in it) -- largely to facilitate experimentation and learning with MobileSheets without having to repeatedly reload files and re-add metadata.  I did see how to do that and have those backups now.

[Zubersoft]

Please recognize that MobileSheets for Android is an Android application, first and foremost, and is not a ChromeOS application. It just happens to run on Chromebooks due to the fact that Google emulates and has support for Android applications. So I'm not going to try to tailor the experience for Chromebook devices. The handling of external storage (that is what "My Files" is from the perspective of the Android SDK) accounts for SD cards, USB thumb drives, etc, and so the UIs that you see are because the "My Files" is being handled like a removable SD card. That is because it appears as the same type of storage as a removable SD card, hence why the instructional dialog calls out SD cards.

If you want to import from "My Files", the best way to do that is Import->System File Browser, which uses Google's file picker.

I should say that, on my Google Pixel Slate, Import->Local File acts EXACTLY like it does on an Android device if you don't tap the SD card icon and try to jump to other locations. If you tap the SD card icon and then "Device", it takes you to /storage/emulated/0. You can then tap the Download folder, for example, and import anything you want under there. You could change the storage location to a folder under /storage/emulated/0 as well, and if you do that, then you'll have access to that from any other Android location that can access that folder. The ChromeOS file manager probably can't, because it's not designed as an Android application - it's a ChromeOS application. So you are going to run into issues if you try to mix the two. Instead, install an Android file manager like File Manager +, and that will be able to access the downloads folder (assuming it has the all files access permission, otherwise it will have to use Google's file picker or be limited in other ways). 

I think you significantly complicated things by trying to involve the "My Files" section of the storage, most likely because you wanted to use the ChromeOS file manager (which is a completely natural thing to want to do). I just don't know what the best way is to inform users of the potential pitfalls of using Android applications on ChromeOS, because this is not a MobileSheets specific issue. 

Mike

[ghmerrill]

I think you significantly complicated things by trying to involve the "My Files" section of the storage, most likely because you wanted to use the ChromeOS file manager (which is a completely natural thing to want to do). I just don't know what the best way is to inform users of the potential pitfalls of using Android applications on ChromeOS, because this is not a MobileSheets specific issue. 

Mike

I don't really care about using the ChromeOS file manager if something else would work better, but most users would expect the resident file manager to work seamlessly with whatever application they were trying to use.

In terms of the best way to inform users of the potential pitfalls of using Android applications on ChromeOS, I suggest that (as you indicate) this is a broader problem than MobileSheets faces, and not really your responsibility -- at least in one sense, except this is your app and so it is your responsibility in one way or another in order to achieve user satisfaction. (Not to lecture.  Sorry, but I've been down this road many times.)   I'm personally happy to have MobileSheets working as well as it does on Chromebook, though I'd also definitely more than welcome a Chromebook version that worked seamlessly -- even if it didn't support the full range of features supported on other systems.  And in the interim I'll happily pay the price of MobileSheets Chromebook "glitches" in order to derive the benefits for my own purposes. 

Chromebooks are increasing in market share (even in commercial environments) and we can expect to see more of that in the future.  The performance/cost ratio is very high for Chromebooks, and if they ever decide to start producing Chromebooks with the same display aspect ratio as the iPad, I think the results -- in terms of the market -- will be staggering.

A problem for MobileSheets right now is that when you go on Google Play and want to install it, it shows the Chromebook as one possibility -- with no warnings about any potential issues.  Of course one way to avoid user problems would be to withdraw the ability to install on Chromebook, but I'd be very unhappy to see that.  As an alternative, MobileSheets can query the user's system at run time to see what it's running on (Android vs. ChromeOS), and then generate a different interface presentation to the user that just doesn't display the options that won't work on ChromeOS (while leaving the bulk of features intact).  So, for example, the option to change the storage location just doesn't appear to the Chromebook user, alleviates frustration, and avoids the need to "warn" that something won't work.   That way, you wouldn't have to inform users of pitfalls since the pitfalls would be removed.  You should, of course, then also document "Features not currently supported on Chromebook".   Just a thought about what an interim solution for you might be.

[Zubersoft]

A couple of commnets:

1) Creating a native ChromeOS app would require pretty much rewriting the entire application, as a ChromeOS app is nothing like an Android app
2) That would add yet another version to support, and that would require a separate purchase from the Android version. I would need to see strong evidence that this would result in a significant number of continued sales over the native Android version to even consider this. I'm already struggling with the workload of supporting native versions of the app on three platforms, along with the companion app and e-ink version
3) There is a roundabout way to detect if something is a ChromeOS device (you check to see if has a system feature called "org.chromium.arc.device_management"), but I have no idea if this is 100% reliable across all devices or if it will ever stop working. I also check the system build name to see if it includes "_cheets" or "cheets_" as that was an older technique to identify it. Regardless, while I have this information, it's still difficult in some cases to know what stuff to change at runtime, because in theory, everything should work properly if it's emulating Android properly. Things like the "My Files" storage is an abomination that shouldn't even be exposed to the Android emulator in my opinion, as it's read-only storage. Having said that, it can still be useful to import from. One thing I can try to do is eliminate it as an option while showing storage choices when setting the storage location, but this is still messy and requires injecting device specific logic into something that is designed to be generic in nature, which I really hate doing.

I think you'll find that there are no sheet music management apps that are ChromeOS apps, because I don't think there is much of a market for it (or native ChromeOS apps at all for that matter). Most ChromeOS apps are just web apps. Regardless, MobileSheets still works perfectly fine on Chromebooks if you ignore some of the confusion around the "My Files" storage. So I think this has been blown a little out of proportion.

Mike

[ghmerrill]

Regardless, MobileSheets still works perfectly fine on Chromebooks if you ignore some of the confusion around the "My Files" storage.

As I said, I'm happy to ignore such things once I can determine what they are.

So I think this has been blown a little out of proportion.

Well, I can't get back that part of my life where I was repeatedly trying to get something to work in accord with both the explicit documentation and under guidance of the developer, when it turns out that it just can't be expected to work at all.  Some pesky users are touchy about such things.    But I'm prepared to chalk it up to experience and take what I can get.  It's all part of learning how something works.  Thanks for the insights.

[Zubersoft]

That could be a new folder under /storage/emulated/0, and then an external file browser would have access to that location. 

I pointed you to the /storage/emulated/0 location, not "My Files". You decided to go off on that tangent without any direction from me in regards to that. I would have been happy to explain earlier that you can't use Google's file browser, and instead need to use an Android file browser application. I also told you that you could access the files using USB, which didn't require you to try changing the storage location either.  Everything I told you is still accurate, matches the documentation and it will work. Just don't select "My Files" which is not called out in the documentation because it's ChromeOS specific. As mentioned, I'll take steps to prevent that from being an option for the storage location in the future.

I'm sorry you wound up wasting time on that, and that I did not think to explain about the problems related to that ahead of time.

Mike

[ghmerrill]

1) Creating a native ChromeOS app would require pretty much rewriting the entire application, as a ChromeOS app is nothing like an Android app

With approximately 30 years of software tools, OS, and applications design and development behind me, this gives me some insight into the design and implementation of MobileSheets.

I think I may have been too harsh in my expectations, and this conversation has led me to change my approach.  So if MobileSheets is more specifically designed and tested to run on Android, and not reliably adaptable to ChromeOS, then I just need to go in that direction for a dedicated sheet music system.  I'm now thinking of moving towards a relatively large Android tablet along the lines of a Samsung Galaxy Tab S7 with a 12" screen.  The cost/performance ratio is quite low, I can expect MobileSheets to perform well without drama or workarounds. The full-blown tablet approach offers some other advantages as well.  And I've already learned a lot in the process of experimentation with Chromebook attempt. 

[Zubersoft]

That sounds great Gary - I think you'll be happier with an Android tablet, and you'll avoid some of the potential ChromeOS headaches.

Mike