[RAc]

Hi there,

i am glad to report that I have recently been able to win a few new MSP users in my musical tribe. As a result, we are exchanging installation/usage tips and tricks which may result in the odd forum escalation. 

here is #1 - apologies if this should be a known issue - : assume I have a pdf consisting of several tunes and wish to select these individually in MSP. The following works like a charm:

- use some pdf editor to add pdf compatible bookmarks to the beginning of each tune, then use Import/import pdf bookmarks and voila, you can now see each tune bookmark, navigate to it, search for it... just like documented and expected.

however, not all users habe the tools available to annotate the pdf files prior to importing. One of my friends saw that there is a boomark tool inside MSP and used it like so: Import a multi tune pdf as a pdf (ie without bookmarks), then set individual bookmarks via the bookmark tool. You can see those bookmarks alright, but they will never show up in the tune data base. So two things with the same name and a very similar UI do different things. Unfortunately, the docs mention bookmarks only generically, so it is not clear for newcomers to tell these two apart. Would it not make sense to rename MSP internal bookmarks to avoid confusion?

or is there a way to escalate MSP internal bookmarks to the tune data base?

thanks!

[mdavej]

Kindle and other e-readers also add "internal" bookmarks which aren't pdf bookmarks. So I understand the distinction and prefer that the name for such a feature remain simply "bookmark". But I'm not opposed to some additional explanation in the help documentation.

[itsme]

In my personal database and most of my posts in this forum I call it PDFBookmarks, just like Mike does it on MobileSheets' bookmark window
   

To add PDFBookmarks to my fakebooks I use jPdfBookmarks https://sourceforge.net/projects/jpdfbookmarks/ 
Rather old, but still works fine and it is free. If somebody can recommend another free alternative please let us know.
Or you can buy and use a professional more or less expensive PDF tool.

You can easily create PDFBookmarks from an existing CSV file, see
https://www.zubersoft.com/mobilesheets/f...-5298.html

or create a CSV file from existing PDFBookmarks with PDF2CSV
https://www.zubersoft.com/mobilesheets/f...-8565.html

[Zubersoft]

A bookmark in MobileSheets is just a reference to a single page in an existing song/piece. It is not a replacement for an actual song/piece in the song list, and cannot be treated as such, as it does not define a range of pages. The "Create Snippet" feature serves that purpose. There is a dedicated bookmarks tab though on the library screen - you need to go to Settings->Library Settings->Tab Selection and Order to add that tab if you want to see it though.

Mike

[RAc]

Kindle and other e-readers also add "internal" bookmarks which aren't pdf bookmarks. So I understand the distinction and prefer that the name for such a feature remain simply "bookmark". But I'm not opposed to some additional explanation in the help documentation.

So that implies that there are (at least) THREE different types of bookmarks to distinguish between and deal with - MSP bookmarks, "native" pdf bookmarks and reader specific bookmarks?

[mdavej]

What's an MSP bookmark and reader specific bookmark? All I know is I can view PDF bookmarks or use them to create songs on import, or I can add my own bookmarks to a song within MSP. What's this 3rd type you're talking about?

Regardless, your band mates need to create songs like you did. Since they apparently can't do PDF bookmarks, they should use the CSV import method.

[RAc]

What's an MSP bookmark and reader specific bookmark? All I know is I can view PDF bookmarks or use them to create songs on import, or I can add my own bookmarks to a song within MSP. What's this 3rd type you're talking about?

I am referring to this here:

mdavej Wrote:[url=https://www.zubersoft.com/mobilesheets/forum/post-50644.html#pid50644][/url]

Kindle and other e-readers also add "internal" bookmarks which aren't pdf bookmarks. 

from my understanding, these are neither pdf bookmarks  nor boomarks internal to MSP as you mark them reader internal (MSP is an optional software that is not directly related to e-readers). So that would be a third type of bookmarks, right?

[mdavej]

I was offering an example of another app that had bookmarks for PDFs that weren't part of the PDF to illustrate the universality of the term.

I don't understand how my example is a third type of bookmark. 

Suffice to say, I don't want the term "bookmark" to be changed in MSP. I like it the way it is.

[RAc]

I don't understand how my example is a third type of bookmark. 

I am afraid I can't phrase an answer significantly different than I did before: The first kind is bookmarks embedded in pdf documents, the second kind is managed by an app software (MSP), so the ones you mentioned can not be either of the two (since you describe them as being maintained by the reader OS, they can not belong to either documents - kind one - nor apps - kind 2), thus they must logically be a third type.

Nevertheless, let us not continue this debate as apparently I am the only one to raise an issue here. All I am saying is that several of us spent a significant amount of time scratching our heads about the meaning of the term "bookmark" and why we did not succeed in trying to locate individual tunes in multi tune documents using "bookmarks" - even though the documentation explicitly states that that is exactly what "bookmarks" are for. I do not object to MSPs terminology, I just recommend untangling the oerloaded use of the term in documentation to prevent others from falling into the same trap (and thus possibly abandoning MSP out of frustration).

Thanks!

[mdavej]

Why do you say the other bookmark doesn't belong to the MSP song file? It most certainly does. There is no other place to store it.

You still don't understand my analogy. User created bookmarks on Kindle aren't embedded in the pdf just as MSP bookmarks created by a user are not embedded in the pdf. Kindle stores user created things in a file for each book just as MSP stores them in a song file. My point is, many apps use the term "bookmark" for both user-defined and embedded pdf bookmarks.

When I create a bookmark in MSP, it does indeed point to an individual tune or specific page within that tune. Bookmarks (all types) work exactly as described. So I still don't understand your issue. If you think MSP is confusing, ForeScore is downright mystifying. So the grass isn't necessarily greener.

For my use, bookmarks are appropriate for ad-hoc marking of specific pages within a PDF from within MSP. Songs are appropriate for managing individual tunes within one large pdf or pdf files consisting of a single tune. Songs can be searched, filtered, grouped, put in set lists, hold annotations, store meta-data. They're the primary way to access and manage tunes. While MSP bookmarks can flag tunes within a large pdf, it's really the wrong tool for the job. Your bandmate needs to bite the bullet and make a song file for every tune. As you already know, it's quite easy to do using PDF bookmarks or, if you don't have PDF bookmarks, a CSV file. My MSP library has over 6000 tunes in a couple hundred PDFs, some of which have PDF bookmarks, some of which don't. For the ones that don't, I made songs using CSV files, something anybody who has excel, google sheets or even notepad can easily do.

In any case, I'm just another user like you. I don't represent Mike's views at all, only my own. When I see a suggestion for a change I'm likely to find even more confusing, I speak up since Mike will immediately jump on every suggestion and make a change.

[Lawrie]

<snip
One of my friends saw that there is a boomark tool inside MSP and used it like so: Import a multi tune pdf as a pdf (ie without bookmarks), then set individual bookmarks via the bookmark tool. You can see those bookmarks alright, but they will never show up in the tune data base.
<snip>

Hi RAc,
I'm a bit late to this party, sorry.
With the greatest of respect to your friend, I think they are trying to use the wrong feature.  Or perhaps it should be considered trying to solve the wrong problem.

As the desired goal is to be able to access individual pages/songs within a larger, multi song PDF then they should use a database entry per song which points to the correct page within the PDF.  Importing via bookmarks does exactly this.

So, you have the option to import using embedded bookmarks, or a CSV file.  If the bookmarks are already there, then that's great, use 'em, but if they're not then you have the option to use a third party PDF editor to put them in so you can import using bookmarks*, OR creating a CSV file to import such a PDF - this is the method I believe your friend should be using.  

Yes, it takes a little work to create the CSV file but probably no more than creating embedded bookmarks, and this can be done from any computer and copied to the tablet along with the PDF for import.  Also, you don't need PDF specific software to do it.  Many users use a spreadsheet and export to CSV, I prefer to use a text editor (The Semware Editor [TSE] is one I like a lot - used to be called Qedit).  Less automated but I'm not a spreadsheet savant either.

There are template spreadsheets available on the forum mentioned below.  I use a template I created for TSE.

* which is the approach you use if I'm understanding what you've said correctly.

The Import section of the manual is very helpful.

Also, see this forum - especially the "Important Threads" section:
https://www.zubersoft.com/mobilesheets/f...um-29.html

For what it's worth, as a very, very fresh newbie, this is one of the first things I chose to learn how to use as I knew I wanted to load up many fakebooks as well as other multi song PDFs.  It really isn't very hard.  I now have well over 7000 songs loaded and it was easy as pie to do.  Especially considering the CSV forum has premade CSV files** for many of the fakebooks I wanted to load up.

** I did need to edit some of them for my particular PDFs but that wasn't a big deal.  Mainly just changing page numbers.

[RAc]

<snip
One of my friends saw that there is a boomark tool inside MSP and used it like so: Import a multi tune pdf as a pdf (ie without bookmarks), then set individual bookmarks via the bookmark tool. You can see those bookmarks alright, but they will never show up in the tune data base.
<snip>

Hi RAc,
I'm a bit late to this party, sorry.
With the greatest of respect to your friend, I think they are trying to use the wrong feature.  Or perhaps it should be considered trying to solve the wrong problem.

As the desired goal is to be able to access individual pages/songs within a larger, multi song PDF then they should use a database entry per song which points to the correct page within the PDF.  Importing via bookmarks does exactly this.

Hi lawrie,

thank you very much for the detailed explanations. They are very helpful, but my point is that those should be in the docs or at the very least added to it in some form.

Just to be in sync, I am looking at  zubersoft.com/mobilesheets/MobileSheetsPro.pdf , pg. 76, "the bookmarks window." It reads: " They [bookmarks] can also be configured to show up on the bookmarks tab on the library screen, which provides a mechanism to jump to specific parts of songs by searching for the bookmark name. Bookmarks are very useful when dealing with large scores or PDFs containing multiple songs in them, as you can individually mark the songs with bookmarks, and load these from the bookmarks tab."

As Mike pointed out earlier in this thread, the bookmarks tab is by default disabled, so using *MSP bookmarks* does NOT provide a way to search for tunes in a multiple tune pdf in an out of the box installation. However, if you happen to have a pdf that already has bookmarks to locate individual tunes, you can use those to locate the tunes out of the box, yet you need to a) know or ensure that the pdf already has predefined bookmarks AND b) import the file via the "import pdf bookmarks" dialog, not the regular (and thus not bulk import) dialog.

That was our confusion, and I believe that adding a clarification to the docs would significantly help newcomers in overcoming the hurdle of trying to deal with multiple tune pdfs. I do not have any problem with the way it is implemented and do not request any software change, I just think that the documentation could be enhanced.

Thanks!

[Lawrie]

<snip
One of my friends saw that there is a boomark tool inside MSP and used it like so: Import a multi tune pdf as a pdf (ie without bookmarks), then set individual bookmarks via the bookmark tool. You can see those bookmarks alright, but they will never show up in the tune data base.
<snip>

Hi RAc,
I'm a bit late to this party, sorry.
With the greatest of respect to your friend, I think they are trying to use the wrong feature.  Or perhaps it should be considered trying to solve the wrong problem.

As the desired goal is to be able to access individual pages/songs within a larger, multi song PDF then they should use a database entry per song which points to the correct page within the PDF.  Importing via bookmarks does exactly this.

Hi lawrie,

thank you very much for the detailed explanations. They are very helpful, but my point is that those should be in the docs or at the very least added to it in some form.

<snip>
However, if you happen to have a pdf that already has bookmarks to locate individual tunes, you can use those to locate the tunes out of the box, yet you need to a) know or ensure that the pdf already has predefined bookmarks AND b) import the file via the "import pdf bookmarks" dialog, not the regular (and thus not bulk import) dialog.

That was our confusion, and I believe that adding a clarification to the docs would significantly help newcomers in overcoming the hurdle of trying to deal with multiple tune pdfs. I do not have any problem with the way it is implemented and do not request any software change, I just think that the documentation could be enhanced.
<snip>

I think you've made my point here.  Easy to see if there's bookmarks in a PDF, just open it in a PDF reader, like Acrobat Reader...  If they're there and suitable then Bob's your uncle, and if they're not then don't waste your time buggerising around with the inbuilt bookmark function, just import the PDF using a CSV file.
That way they appear in the songs database and you don't need to mess around with the bookmarks tab.